[00:01:55]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Hello and welcome everybody to another episode of the Get Stacked Investment Podcast. Today I have a very special guest, a friend of mine and colleague, Rafael Ortega, who is a Spanish investor, not from Latin America, but from Spain. He is currently a senior investment fund manager at Andbank Wealth Management, where he manages a bunch of portfolios including permanent portfolio ideas, All-Terrain, Return Stacking, and what he calls the Offroad Investor Approach, which are custom built portfolios for institutions and high net worth individuals.
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This is an interview that I have been wanting to have for a while now. I have also been doing his podcast in Spanish, called The Offroad Investor, for over a year now. Rafa?​

[00:02:43]>Rafael Ortega: Yeah.​

[00:02:44]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. And I struggle a little bit with the nomenclature in Spanish when it comes to our industry, and I am sure Rafa is gonna go through the same. It is my turn to make him suffer a little bit and do it in English. But I figured that it would be a great time to bring him on board because I think, broadly speaking, when we talk about Return Stacking, and the way that we have really garnered attention is how do people stack returns above a 60/40 portfolio or 80/20 portfolio, or a hundred percent equity + portfolio.
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And then you get into, okay, what else can we do with the Return Stacking? Maybe there is a more balanced approach to building a portfolio and you get to an ultra-terrain approach. But Raf actually came the other way around. He started, when I met him anyway, he is going to tell us his background, but when I met him, he actually had already started thinking about the concept of a balanced portfolio and then built himself into All-Terrain., and now he is thinking about the latest iterations of doing 60/40 + or a hundred +. So yes, he is a fantastic partner. He actually has taken the Return Stacked Portfolio Solutions moniker and on our behalf, started creating the brand in Spain.

So we will talk a little bit about that, but before I get into all of the fun stuff, I do want the audience to get a bit of a background on you and how you started as an engineer and ended up in Return Stacking Portfolio Solutions. So maybe give us a broad overview of your history.

Backgrounder
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[00:04:24]>Rafael Ortega: First of all, sorry for my English. All the investing information I consume is in English, but then I never speak about investing in English, so I am sure some of the words are not going to come, and maybe Rodrigo can help, as I have been helping him in Spanish.

The thing is, I started not as an investor, right? I did engineering. I thought I was gonna be some sort of consultant, and I actually started in one of those big consultancy firms as an analyst. But that lasted only a couple of months because then I was studying and living in Madrid. My family is from Valencia, that is another city in the east of Spain, and my family used to run, my mother used to run a small business and then she was sick and went on a—the business was in a crisis, and I felt like the prodigal son that had to come back and do something about that. I have a younger brother. He was still studying, and my father had recently passed away, so we were going through a huge family crisis. We solved it eventually.

And then at that point I was looking at, like any family and any business, what do you do when you make more than you consume, so what do you, what do we do with those savings? But obviously I was youngish, like 20 something, but I was looking at family money. I had not really made that. Also something that had taken a couple generations to build.

I started looking online on what do you do when you invest? And everything I found was trading, or oddly enough, in Spain there is a huge value investing culture. So I got into the Warren Buffett’s and Benjamin Graham’s and all of that. I also had a look at what had been done in the past.

And my mother used to work with a local bank, and I very fast, I found that most commercial banks, first of all, in Spain until now, most people just relied on their state pension. Financial literacy is very low. Only the newer generations are starting to see that they will need to have some savings in the future.

So basically, everyone worked with their commercial bank, which just gives you closet indexed funds that are expensive, strategies that are expensive. That is not going to take you anywhere, and I just could not find a solution that made sense, or made sense for me. When I looked at a value investor, they would say have these great marketing things, you know, value is what you get, but price is just what you pay.

And that sounds great, but if you have just gone through a crisis like I have just done, and if your savings are 50 percent down, it does not matter that you tell me that the value is not down. The price is what matters if, when you need your savings, right? Most people, or at least my understanding of this was most people need to balance out participating and protecting. You need both of those.

And that to me is what makes sense to almost everyone, and I started looking at market history and other strategies and I just did not see it. I saw those 50 percent drawdowns. And then even if you have a theoretically balanced portfolio with stocks and bonds, those also go through huge drawdowns when there is inflation. I just looked around and I could not see anything that I could believe in, right? Or that I liked. I do not know how I found Harry Browne and the Permanent Portfolio idea.​

[00:08:17]>Rodrigo Gordillo: You don’t remember?

[00:08:18]>Rafael Ortega: I do not know what I saw it the first time, right? Just, I must have read a blog post or something, and that just clicked. I read it and I thought, okay, this makes so much sense to me.

And for those who do not know, basically the Permanent Portfolio idea is that we are going to have economic cycles. We are really bad at anticipating the next step of the cycle, or even if we know what is going to happen. We have to also have the timing right. It is just too difficult.

But at the same time, we do know that different assets, and then eventually I found that different strategies also have this behavior. They behave in different ways in different environments. And that is something you can believe in, right? We know that is going to happen eventually. It is not in the short term, but in the medium term that eventually happens. So you can map those.

And the simplest version of this would be a portfolio that has something that works for growth, something that works for deflation, something that works for inflation, and then something that will work in a recession. Browne had stocks, bonds, gold and cash, or invested cash.

And so you have three assets that are high volatility. That is 75 percent of the portfolio, 75 percent of the portfolio have low correlation. And then you have a buffer, which essentially is de-levering that portfolio for you.

So you have a conservative approach, investing, has low volatility, good returns. It works in different market scenarios. I think what you are showing here is yeah, the different asset classes and what do we expect from them. But not only what do we expect, like, what do we know is going to happen, right? The theory.

[00:10:10]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. Yeah. That is a thing, that is kind of the key thing here, right? So what I am showing here for those that are not watching and listening, is just the performance of some periods where we have seen inflationary stagnation, inflationary boom, deflationary bust, and disinflationary boom, which are just fancy names for when the intersection between high or low inflation shocks and positive or negative inflation shocks happen.
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And you can see clearly, right? And this is, I think the big unlock when you get into this world is, okay, everybody wants to just do better. Warren Buffett value investing and throw in a little bonds, just to reduce risk.

But the reality is that a lot of retirees in the last few years that put a hundred percent of their money in bonds have realized that even bonds have risk. And you can, and you do not have to have a lived experience that tells you that for them to modify your behavior.

Before we saw the 2022 inflation shocks, you and I had already come to the conclusion that high inflation would be bad for both equities and bonds at the same time. But this chart here just shows, inflationary stagnation, you are, what you generally saw historically was commodities, gold, and in this case, trend following, we will get to that.

But Harry Browne is more traditional assets, right? More gold than anything. And then inflationary boom, which is high inflation, accelerating growth, everything floats up, but the biggest winners are commodities and gold. Disinflationary boom, which is what our lived experience, and most investors lived experience, has spent most of their time on is high accelerating growth shocks, and falling inflation.
​ And that means, of course, that equities and bonds are going to do well.

And I think that is why the 60/40 has become so prominent. And deflationary bust is when you have a bear market and a negative growth shock, and slowing growth without inflation, right? So that is generally equities down, commodities down, and then you see bonds really picking up the baton, trend following and commodities, sorry, and gold, bonds and trend following getting hurt.

So that is, when you understand that framework, you are like, oh, okay, we need to think about my families. In your case, right, it was my family’s wealth going forward, and Harry Browne basically, from what I understand, it was fairly simple, and the original idea is just a quarter cash, gold, equity long, right?
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[00:12:45]>Rafael Ortega: It seems simple that it looks silly, but if you look at it from what I know now, actually the three assets are kind of risk parity, equal X, right? Because it is called stocks and long-term bonds, and those kind of have the same volatility, right?
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So you are actually doing like a risk parity from those three, and then the other one is just a buffer. It is just de-leveraging the portfolio.

So you have the conservative approach, because he was trying to find a solution that anyone could do, and that it made sense for almost anyone. So the conservative approach to that made a lot of sense.
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Also, we can go on that a little later, right? But with only, if you only have stocks, … gold, there are still sometimes where those three can go down, down especially through some crisis and shocks. And so he wanted something that would protect you even then, right? Something that was…​

[00:13:43]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:13:44]>Rafael Ortega: All-Terrain. I found that…

[00:13:47]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Can I just pause there for one second? One thing that I think few people understand is when we say bonds, most people think about that Aggregate Bond Index, aggregate bond portfolio that has, generally speaking, has a duration of six to seven years, volatility profile of 4 or 5%. And the key behind balance is making sure that the maniacs are not taken over the asylum, right? That you do not want equities to be four tenths of volatility of your bond portfolio.

And there is two ways of doing that leverage, which we will talk about in a sec, but more importantly here, if you go out the curve, and the longer the duration, the more the volatility, therefore the bigger the impact when you need it the most and the bigger the impact when you are getting hurt. But if it is balanced in risk across equity and bonds, that is the way to do it.

So when we talk about bonds here, we are really talking about long volatility bonds, which nobody does, right? Because it is too volatile, because bonds are supposed to be safe, they are not supposed to be volatile. And it is so funny because they could be whatever you…​

[00:14:54]>Rafael Ortega: Exactly. So I started my own personal portfolio, like for the company, for the business or the family, however you want to see it. And it was a permanent portfolio, and I started talking about the permanent portfolio with different banks because I was trying to get those long-term bonds in that gold position. And it was almost impossible, right? And everyone looked at me like 25 percent? What? They could not understand.

And then also I started looking online and finding more people. Eventually I found you guys, and I found other All-Weather solutions or All-Terrain solutions. But at that point in time, that I was like my first aha moment where, as we have said before, once you see it, you just can not unsee it, and I noticed that no one in Spain, or in the Spanish internet world was actually talking about this, like absolutely no one.

And even in the anglosphere, as I like to call it, though, you can find people talking about programming portfolio ideas and All-Weather, it is there, there is more people doing it and there is obviously like you guys and more people doing it. but it is not that, it is not standard, right? Like it is more of a niche thing. In Spain or in Spanish absolutely no one was talking about this.

So that sent me through a double path, one of, okay, there is a business opportunity here. So this makes a lot of sense. It makes sense for me. There is obviously more people than it makes sense for. I need to learn more about this and get my license and become an advisor and start preaching this. And then on the other side, I need to keep learning more and more about how to implement these strategies better and better. And that is how I found you guys. I found my favor with this Trinity approach. I found, eventually found Corey. I found Ray Dalio and all of his pupils and all of those risk party ideas.

So I just spent the last decade and a half reading and trying to see what people were doing in the space, and then trying to get my way through compliance teams and Spanish institutions to try to get these things back so that investors in Spain can actually have a portfolio that does this.

[00:17:31]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, being a trail blazer is not always fun.
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[00:17:35]>Rafael Ortega: Yeah, along the way I built a community of people that believe in this, right? So when, as you were saying, when you came up with that All-Terrain paper Return Stacking Anything. I see, I started learning about trend following. Anything I see, I just see it from this structural diversification standpoint. I just cannot see it any other way.​

[00:18:06]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. And I will give you credit. You are, I always tell people that you are the Corey Hoffstein of the Spanish investment space, because when you say you built a community, you really are an incredible writer and synthesizer of information.

Even the stuff that we have written that we think we synthesize, when you take your take, when you have your take and your go, it is so much easier to understand.
​So, kudos and credits to you for being able to do that for a community that has literally never heard of most of this stuff. At least in the U.S., you didn’t, it’s wide enough, and Canada, that you can reach some people. You are starting from scratch. Every single person you are talking to like has never heard about this, right? And so I think you must have learned by slamming your head against the wall, how to communicate with a community and create a pretty large one, as I see it now.​

[00:18:58]>Rafael Ortega: I think whenever I read your stuff, I feel like, okay, this is written for someone that knows what we are talking about, and I always try to water it down into the essence of it, because I am usually talking to retail, right? Most in Spain, most funds are sold, right? People that do invest with me buy my funds, right? They buy the idea, and then they go into the strategy.

I have no commercial team. I just do education and people find our stuff, and if they have the similar, if they buy into the idea or the philosophy, then they eventually invest, or they do something similar and then preach it around, and then that hits other people. But that is basically what I have been trying to do.

But always with that focus on that, there is many things I do not know, but I do know that diversification works and that the true diversification is what I think, I think Adam is the first person I read that said structural diversification. And that just, again, I think one of the things that All-Terrain or All-Weather investors do not have, is the same nomenclature. And I think that is something that value investors have and other investors have, and that brings a lot of those people together and then that creates a community and that helps the ideas grow.

So I like how you guys have been interviewing people that are supposedly your competitors, but in the way I see it they are not your competitor, right? Your competitor is someone that is doing an index fund, robo-advisor thing, or just a highly active in the sense of stock picking, stock picking strategy.
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We are doing something different and we need to speak about it, without trying to hide what we are doing. Like with the example of Return Stacking, I think it is very clear. I think the reason people buy Return Stacking is that you are actually saying what you are doing, and you are not scared of saying what you are doing, and you are not scared of defending the idea that you are trying to defend.​

[00:21:17]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:21:18]>Rafael Ortega: It is tough, because you are saying things like leverage, managed futures, especially when I, every time I bring something to the table, as you were saying, no one is certain, like when I have to explain global macro or carry strategies, like most of the time people are like, what a new thing again.

[00:21:38]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, we feel your pain for sure. And yeah, this is why communication and having the ability to synthesize things as well as you do is important here. But let’s go back to, you have this interesting permanent portfolio approach and your evolution towards where you got stuck, and then how Return Stacking might have unlocked some value there.​

[00:22:04]>Rafael Ortega: The thing is, when I started with a permanent portfolio for myself, but when I got the opportunity, I actually became a financial advisor. That is where I got my first clients, and that I started to grow a base of investors that were interested in adding something different to their portfolios, right? That is how I actually started, and eventually I got the opportunity to start a small fund, so I could build a strategy and people could go into the strategy, instead of me managing everyone’s little portfolio.

And I thought at the time, this was an error, by the way, but at the time I thought that most people wanted something that was not as conservative, right, the permanent portfolio’s problem, and I do not think it is a problem. I think it is made on purpose, but it is a pretty conservative strategy. It is conservative in many ways. It is conservative because it has low volatility. It is conservative because it is only using biggest assets around because Browne was thinking about something that was fail safe. It would not blow up.

But there he preached this, late seventies, early eighties, and eventually there is more things that we can do with our portfolio, right? There is more going on now that didn’t exist then, and that maybe you can bring into your strategy.

And I was trying to find something that was more, I wanna say balanced, but really, that was equivalent to a 60/40, at least in most people’s minds, right?
​Something that was medium risk. Let’s call it medium risk, but yeah, something that was equivalent to a 60/40. And every time I tried to build a portfolio, design a portfolio that was matching 60/40 volatility, I was losing the balance, right, because you have to have more stocks.

If you have to have more stocks, then suddenly those stocks are running the asylum, as you were saying. Then if I add diversifiers on the other side, I get more tracking error, and then people are going to ask questions when those diversifiers are not working. So it was a tough challenge.

I think I built a portfolio that was, it is still on now, it is transitioning to a Return Stack version of the portfolio, but it is something that was, let’s say, around 50% equities or 60% equities, and then the rest was an All-Terrain defense, right? But if you want more volatility and you do not use leverage, the only way to do this is to get more stocks in. And then when stocks fall, your All-Terrain defense is not going to recoup all those losses.

It is just going to be more, you have more trust on the fact that it is going to work better than just bonds, because bonds can also fall sometimes. And All-Terrain defense is going to work more times. It is going to work against those stocks, but it is not really going to recover the loss that you got. It is just going to, what is the word I am looking for, a word that is not Rodrigo but it is like you are, look, you are diluting your risk in a more efficient way, but it is not really, you are not really balance things, balancing things out.​

[00:25:30]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, that…​

[00:25:31]>Rafael Ortega: That is. And every into, okay, so maybe we get defensive equities, and maybe we do some momentum thing on top. And I was just trying lots of things to find balance and with traditional strategies. It is just now I think it is just impossible. You are never going to, you always have to take more risk in the form of cycle risk.

​[00:25:55]>Rodrigo Gordillo: So, let me pause there for a second and just show an oldie, but a goodie. We have been talking about this already, right? But this one just shows a chart of gold, global equities, commodities, and 10 year Treasuries, right? Roughly speaking, I don’t know, 19, this is 1990-2023.

Roughly speaking, they all make the same amount of return, but obviously the paths are wildly different, right? So “which one do you want to choose” is always the question.

And from the perspective of risk balancing these, again, we talked about long-term Treasuries, I’m using the 10-year. If you run a simple equal-risk contribution analysis to try to make sure that we balance things off, you are looking at 42% in Treasuries, 29% in trend following here, 15% in global equities, 12% in commodities to get a 100% portfolio.

And of course, the 10,000 foot view of that is that you get this smoothed out line that kind of crosses in the middle of everything, but actually slightly outperforms over the long term, mainly due to the rebalancing benefit, that diversification premium.

Now, while this line looks amazing, let’s, this is a, I was trying to think about a different way of explaining to people why is it that an equal risk portfolio is generally going to not provide the returns that a high risk portfolio like equities is going to provide?
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And the reality is that it is not true over many decades, right? If you think about the equity risk premium, what is the equity risk premium? Depends on global equity risk premium. What is it, 3.5%, 4% above cash, right? So it is, say notional, we are looking at 6% annualized, right? Term premium is 2, 3%. When you actually look at all these returns, they all at the end, as we can see from this graphic, roughly make the same return.

The problem is that by diversifying, you are clustering that return around that long term more often. And sadly, a 60/40 investor, an 80/20 investor tends to see more double digit years than you do when you are balanced. And that is painful. And that reduces risk, and reduces long-term returns. So you have to wait a long time to be able to say, okay, we did it. We did the same or better than with lower risk.

And the reality is that it is boring for most people. When you create this portfolio and you have a 4% volatility portfolio, you are constantly apologizing for not putting enough risk on. And the reality is that you are, up until recently, you were limited as to what you could do in terms of giving people what they wanted, which is, look, I am used to a standard deviation in my portfolio of 12%, 15%. Like, I am okay with that. I am okay with the drawdowns that I have seen. Can you give me that? And the answer was no. The answer was no. This, you get, this is the maximum balanced portfolio you can get.

And so anyway, I thought I’d pause there and show people what we were, what we are…
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[00:29:02]>Rafael Ortega: The graph, because, I love it because it makes so much sense and then no one likes it in real life because in life, I like to sometimes show this and people will always choose that dark blue line, then show it starting in 2010 and then that just.
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[00:29:24]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Right.​

[00:29:24]>Rafael Ortega: Flat. Great risk/return, like great Sharpe ratio, but it is just boring. It just gives you a couple percentage points, while some of the other strategies in this, exactly that point in time, it is gonna be stocks.​

[00:29:43]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:29:43]>Rafael Ortega: You get those double digit returns and like incredibly high Sharpe ratios. And it does not matter how many times you show this, people are gonna be okay when they see it. And then after a couple of months of low volatility, low returns, they are gonna ditch it.​

[00:30:01]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Exactly.​

[00:30:01]>Rafael Ortega: That is just the way it is.​

[00:30:03]>Rodrigo Gordillo: And to their credit, if they feel they are leaving money on the table because they can take more risk, it is a problem.​

[00:30:10]>Rafael Ortega: That is exactly the problem I was running into. I wanted to add more diversification because I knew it worked. I thought the portfolios were gonna be more resilient, more All Weather, and I was all in on that.

But the more diversification you add, diversification works so well that volatility goes down, and when the volatility goes down, eventually returns go down too.
​Then I wanted a bit more volatility and a bit more return, and I needed to have more stocks there. And then I was losing that balance, and then I was going back and forth between those two things, right? More volatility always meant that you had to sacrifice returns.

And then when you had more stocks in, I was saying that I was All Weather, but I was not All Weather because I had 50% to 60% equities in my portfolio, right?
​The way that a 50% to 60% equity portfolio is going to be All Weather because then you would need a leveraged defense, something that was not just a mix of gold, bonds and trend following and other alternative strategies, though that was going to be an All-Weather defense, but not an All-Weather portfolio. That was the problem.
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[00:31:25]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:31:25]>Rafael Ortega: And then when you came up with the Return Stacking paper that I was my second aha moment where I saw it. I could not unsee it. I remember guys did a late livestream or maybe an episode, I am not sure. And I went on the chat and asked, you were saying, you know how Return Stacking, we will talk about this now, like, how it can create some tracking error, whatever. And I think I said something like, okay, but what if you do not care about the tracking error? Let’s talk about a theory. And I think one of you like brushed it off a bit, okay, maybe.​

[00:32:04]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. Because 99% of our audience cares about that, going to fuel lunatics like us. Yeah.​

[00:32:11]>Rafael Ortega: I emailed you like, okay brother, we need to talk because if I can do this. This is what I have been looking for, right? I can create a portfolio. I can finally create a portfolio that is truly diversified, that is using everything that we know we can use. So that means not only assets, but also strategies. We can try to balance those things out. It is going to be a great long-term Sharpe ratio portfolio. It is going to be stable, it is going to be All-Weather, and then we can get it to the volatility that people actually want, right?

And if they want an 8% volatility portfolio, we can do that without losing balance. If you want a 12% volatility portfolio, we can now do that, and it is not losing balance, right? You are not getting, you are getting more risk, you are getting more, you are getting exposure, which is what you want, but you are not getting it through a concentrated cycle risk bit, which is what you do when you have a 50 to 60% equity portfolio.

And I went crazy around the idea and luckily, a year and a half or something later, we finally did it. And we have portfolios on that can actually implement these concepts in Spain. So very grateful.​

[00:33:29]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, and most of the battle that I saw you fight is a battle that we fought originally too. In Canada it is, you are not just fighting a battle of ideas, but you are running into operational roadblocks.

Compliance teams do not want you to do X, Y, Z, the even, platforms do not even have the capability of providing you what you want, or you being able to invest in U.S. Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs) that you, that use gold and stuff, like it has just been a constant struggle, and you have mostly fought through all that. Tell us a little bit about that journey.​

[00:34:06]>Rafael Ortega: Yeah. So the thing is that, I mean it is counterintuitive, right? I am trying to say that I am building something that is leveraged. It is a hundred percent leverage, but it is actually a balanced allocation, right? And that goes against everything that everyone has heard in, or everyone that you get, that is learning about investing will get, is that association that leverage, more leverage means more risk. To be fair, all that is equal. Yeah, more…​

[00:34:43]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:34:44]>Rafael Ortega: More risk. It all depends what we are comparing, right, because I think everyone would understand that if you have a very risky thing and a very unrisky thing, and sometimes you can leverage the unrisky thing and it will still be less risky than the risky thing.

But anyways, the thing here is that, I found that the solution to this problem is how you frame it, right? People think more leverage means more risk, more leverage means that you are chasing higher returns. That is not what we are doing, right? We are using leverage after we are diversifying.

So the right order is you have a certain amount of risk. Now we are diversifying and we are adding true structural diversification to different assets and different strategies. So we are bringing volatility down and because volatility is down, your returns are down, and we are using leverage to recover the exposure you lost through diversification. So we are using leverage after we are diversifying.

And again, this is another of the things that I think everyone in the world should be using because if you do the math and match amount of added exposure so that it matches the risk, through added exposure matches the reduction in risk you get through diversification, you are doing that thing that, the phrase, eating your cake or what is it?
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[00:36:17]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, you are, yeah, you are having your cake and eating it too, having your diversification cake and eating, eating it too. Yeah.​

[00:36:26]>Rafael Ortega: So it is, that is the right order, right? We are reducing risk and then we are using leverage to recover the lost risk. Another way to see it is that you are actually, this is, okay, this is from an All-Terrain, point of view.

If you look at it from a traditional portfolio where you have stocks and bonds, you are adding more diversification through stacking, that is defensive leverage. You are adding more defense to your portfolio. So if you do it right, and if you do the math, most of the times, you are not really adding that much risk. It comes with, with, its, what is the word? With its contra or…​

[00:37:09]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, it’s you can say counterpoints, it comes with this off, with its, there is other offsetting things that happen by when you use leverage, but not necessarily in the same way.​

[00:37:18]>Rafael Ortega: You will have error, right? It comes in the form of tracking error. It comes in the form of, your volatility is gonna be more stable, which sounds good until you see it live, right, that you are actually getting hurt more, very little, but all the time.​

[00:37:35]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, more often, but…​

[00:37:37]>Rafael Ortega: More often.​

[00:37:38]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, so that is the thing I wanted to, because we have chatted about this a lot, and this is, this comes from Corey’s saying that risk cannot be trans, cannot be eliminated. It can only be transformed. And so how do you talk about that?​

[00:37:54]>Rafael Ortega: Again, I think the way to make people understand this is to do it in the right order, right? So the right order should be how much risk are you willing to take in the form of volatility, in the form of expected drawdowns, et cetera, right? Once that is clear, then how do we take that risk and how do we do it in the most efficient way? If you build a portfolio that is just stocks and bonds, you are taking a lot of market risk.

I have heard you say many times that when you look at S&P 500 and you use an ETF, that ETF is unleveraged. But if you look at the companies beneath the ETF and you look at the leverage within the companies in the ETF, you are actually using three times leverage, right, if I remember right. Something…​

[00:38:42]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. Three to one. Four to one. Yeah.​

[00:38:45]>Rafael Ortega: You are taking market cycle risk and we do not have that market cycle risk because that tends to crash. Eventually, like once every whatever years, it will, it, we will get into that part of the cycle where stocks just do not work and you get those big drawdowns.

You want to take that risk and that risk is the risk that you are diversifying, right? So you want to add other things that are going to move in different ways, ebb and flow in different moments, and it is the same amount of risk, but if you take the risk in smaller doses, the same amount of risk, it is much better than just feeling like there is no risk, which is how a 60/40 portfolio feels when everything is going your way.

And then one day, you do not know when, it is gonna come and it is going to hurt you. And there is a, how do you say this in English? There is an asymmetry in the way returns come right, with that.​

[00:39:44]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:39:45]>Rafael Ortega: Understands where a 10 percent drawdown you, you are back at zero with 11 percent, but a 50 percent drawdown needs a hundred percent. So the same amount of…​

[00:39:54]>Rodrigo Gordillo: To break back.​

[00:39:55]>Rafael Ortega: … way to take that risk is to try and do it in smaller doses. Smaller doses makes a lot of sense until you feel it when the other person is not feeling it, right? And that is what happens.​

[00:40:09]>Rodrigo Gordillo: So, you know what, Corey and I yesterday, were having, we’re looking at how to tell this story about this, right? This idea that there is an, there is risk in equities and there is risk in All-Terrain or equal, we are looking at an equal risk portfolio of assets.

And so what I wanted to see is how often you are in drawdown in the S&P 500 on a daily basis, right? So how often are you hitting new high and started losing money versus how often you are in drawdown? I think we did trend following, we did gold. What is fascinating, there is a drawdown in recovery chart that we often use. I will see if I can find it here, later, but, which is you start losing money and then you recover.

And if it is zero, it means you are making new highs all the time. So the top of the chart is flat, as long as you are making new highs. And when you we are looking at trend following and trend following is, could you guess how often on a daily basis the SocGen Trend Index is making new highs?​

[00:41:07]>Rafael Ortega: I would say very little, right? Because I feel it is like you are losing all the time and then suddenly you get that big win. I think what…​

[00:41:15]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, it is like it is around 12% on a daily scale. It is around a third on a monthly scale. And when you look at the chart, when you actually look at the S&P 500, it is like making new highs. It feels, I have not done the actual numbers, but it just, it is flat. That chart of drawdown and recovery is flat most of the time.

And then you have 2008 and you just lose and lose and lose and it is a massive drop. But you never see that in the history of the SocGen index. You never see that lose and lose. Drawdowns in recoveries, drawdowns in recoveries, drawdowns in recoveries. And so I think that tracking error…​

[00:41:50]>Rafael Ortega: I was asking, even you get it to the same level of volatility, so it is like it is structurally different.​

[00:41:57]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Is structurally different. There is some, like you are just getting more, it is, look, it is the skewness of the S&P 500, then you have the big fat tail. The moment you start adding diversification, you add bonds in equal risk, you add gold in equal risk, you add some diversifiers, you now have a more consistent like series of drawdowns every year, right?
​
So you will see your like the area under the curve for those that remember statistics, is roughly the same between a diversified portfolio and the S&P 500. It is actually less, but roughly the same. The difference is that area under the curve is showing up every year more often, and most of the area under the curve happens in big abrupt losses for the S&P 500.

So the experience here is something that is important, right? The experience is how often do you feel like you are winning versus your alternative portfolio?​

[00:42:52]>Rafael Ortega: I think I am lucky here in being to communicate this because I have been talking about the Permanent Portfolio for so long, and that is something that…​

[00:43:01]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Right.​

[00:43:01]>Rafael Ortega: People, I would say in the investing community in Spain at least know about, even if they do not believe in it or they do not use it, they know about it because we have been talking like for a very long time.

Sort of everyone knows that this is like an All-Terrain solution and they have seen how it behaves, just behaves differently, right? Sometimes it is in a drawdown when the S&P or in Europe, most people use the MSCI world as the reference, but stocks are going up and this might be flat, or going down because I do not know, bonds are down or gold is down, or something else is going on. So they are used to this idea.

And then from the Permanent Portfolio to a Return Stacked opera portfolio, which would be like our most I now, I never say risky. I would say it is just the most efficient portfolio, but our most efficient offering would be like a 12% volatility, portfolio that is a mix of stocks, bonds, gold, and then trend, carry and other diversifiers, that would be smaller position, like Bitcoin or arbitrage or whatnot.

And so they are used to seeing that this thing is its own thing, right? The difficulty now is explaining what trend following is, which again, I have been talking about this for longer, but maybe carry is something that people had not been introduced to lately, and starting with a drawdown is never…​

[00:44:38]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. It is tough.
​

[00:44:40]>Rafael Ortega: But they have seen drawdowns in gold and they have seen drawdowns in long-term bonds, which is something that everyone was saying, like, why do you have long-term bonds in the Permanent Portfolio? Why do you have gold? So we are used to explaining, having odd things in the portfolio that everyone knows that you should not have. But…​

[00:45:02]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. Everybody knows that you should not have right now.​

[00:45:05]>Rafael Ortega: Everybody knows. I have learned that, one, two things, right? Diversification works. The second would be that things happen and then the experts show up, It is always that way around. So yeah, never trust the experts.​

[00:45:21]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. I do not understand why you own gold. It has lost nothing. It has lost money. you should have known. We should. Let’s get out of it, ex-post.​

[00:45:32]>Rafael Ortega: The other way around, right? Like gold is an all-time high. So…​

[00:45:35]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Why don’t we buy more gold?​

[00:45:37]>Rafael Ortega: Would you own 25% on your portfolio? Or 20% out of 200. Even in a off-road portfolio, obviously you have to.

[00:45:48]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, and I have, let’s see if I can share this one here. Yeah, this is from the brochure, the All-Terrain portfolio. So we run a couple of model portfolios ourselves, in the returnstacked.com website. But this is just an excerpt of the simplest All-Terrain portfolio. I think it is levered 150%. It is basically all world, 7-10 year Treasuries, gold, and the like some commodities and a Commodity Trading Advisor (CTA) index. And this is another thing that I think we get trapped into is, I think the nomenclature is clearly appealing, this idea of All-Terrain.

But I think what the, what it projects is, never lose. And this is an important distinction. I think you, I think the idea of saying All-Terrain is just a more efficient portfolio. You are still in a 4 X 4 going through some rough terrain and you will fall.

The issue is, are you gonna get stuck in the ditch? And we have used a lot of imagery here on you and me, when talking about the off-road investor and All-Terrain, and I think the important thing is it is a 4 X 4. I think we can get outta most ditches. You do not want to be driving a Ferrari in this environment. And this just shows…​

[00:47:06]>Rafael Ortega: Potholes, right? And when you drive through those, you are gonna feel it. If you have ever in a 4 X 4, going through an off-road path, it is not driving a Tesla to the supermarket. It is very…
​

[00:47:21]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. That is right. That is right. And it really is like when you look at the year over year here, that the All-Terrain does experience shallower, annualized losses and less of them. and you are getting a, the Sharpe ratio of this simple portfolio here is around .25, .24 Sharpe points higher, so more efficient. For every unit of risk you are getting more units of return.
​
But in this case, the example here is to lever it up to the point where it has the same risk as a traditional 60/40 portfolio. So the thing about this small edge is that over time, you see the value, drawdowns are lower and so on, but in any given year, you are like, why are we doing this again? It seems like we are getting the same returns, but it is a lot more complex to understand.

And what I have found is that where this really becomes abundantly clear is when an asset class that people are overexposed to really goes through a, not a two month or three month, but a significant series of years, whether they are flat or down, where you see the value of all the other pistons in the motor doing well.
And it does not always happen that way, right? Like it, what tends to happen is you have these shallow losses in gold and recovery, shallow losses in bonds and recovery, shallow losses in equities and recovery, and it just chugs along and adds a little bit of value. It is super different.

And then there will be a prolonged bear market in equities where you see the All-Terrain, especially something like this, just chug along positively, and that is when you see the value. It does take time to see the long-term value here and it requires a lot of faith, and so a lot of education.​

[00:49:12]>Rafael Ortega: You have to be careful with the way you frame that too, because if we say that, I think I have said sometimes like the overall portfolio needs a crisis in order for you to see like a big difference, right?​

[00:49:30]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Why you have it. Yeah.

[00:49:31]>Rafael Ortega: When you say a crisis, people are going to think, now, a 10% drawdown is a crisis, or a 15% draw…​

[00:49:38]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. Liberation Day drawdown. Yeah.​

[00:49:40]>Rafael Ortega: You need a really tough scenario to see that huge difference to appear, right? Because if not, you just see that it juggles along at that level of volatility, and it can be doing that for, I have run the back test, so I can see you, you can get maybe four or five years where it does the same thing that a equally volatile stock and bond portfolio.

And so the question there is, why am I using this expensive solution that is so complex when a very simple one can give you the same returns, right? It is because in your backpack, you have a lot of things there that you just didn’t need. That does not mean that you are not gonna need them in the future. Like, the sensible thing is always to be prepared. You need to be prepared always.

And if we do not get a terrible, I hope we do not get that terrible car market right. We are going to do okay too. You it is not that bad. But yeah, sometimes I find myself thinking, do I want a terrible bear market for equities, so that people see the value of this. But yeah.
​

[00:51:05]>Rodrigo Gordillo: No, that is that. Yeah. Don’t we all, my anecdote to that is that I was doing this stuff in ’08, and I remember the phases of emotions. Phase one, September, like Lehman goes down, September, October. I am feeling so good, right? I have been talking about it for a few years.

Portfolios are doing great. Everybody is losing their minds. Clients do not even know what is, my clients didn’t know it… like, why is everybody so worried? because they were looking at portfolios in different light, and so the first was relief and satisfaction. We want that.

And then you have January, February, and advisors are not showing up to their desks. Associates are having to talk to clients that are crying on the phone. Family and friends are losing their jobs. And then you are like, crap, I really need this to turn around right now.

It is, there is, it is a double-edged sword to I want to show the value of this, and this is important, but also I do not want to ever have to use those tools. I hope I never have to show you what, how important those tools were. I just need you to trust me so that when it does happen…

And so by the end of it, I was just begging for things to change. And then when things changed, then the markets roared 80% and you are still making 9%, 10% a year, especially when I was non-levered.
​
So it is, as an All-Terrain provider and investor, you go through these emotions. At the end of the day, it comes down to does it, is it a sound, philosophical, fundamental investment strategy that works over time? And I think it is tough to, once you take the red pill, tough to say no, it doesn’t.
​
And even this year, I am looking at just eyeballing the kind of the off-road portfolio, versus an 80/20, right? 80/20 year to date is up again, and I had a drawdown, around 13% drawdown, and in a recovery, and I am looking at an iteration off-road roughly around the same risk, actually lower risk, down, less peak to trough and flat for the year.
​
And they seem identical, but the reality is that one is a levered portfolio and the other one isn’t, right? And the risk of, hey, it is a levered portfolio, that is risky. Again, if you are using defensive leverage, not so much, it had a shallow drawdown. It is now back to break even. And there were tools in there that the 60/40 didn’t have like gold, right? That really helped offset a lot of the losses on the levered side.

And so the question is, what would have happened if this continued to go down 20, 30, 40, 50%? Would they continue to be in tandem like we saw in this shallow loss? And history has shown us that no. It becomes a very different portfolio, in a continuation, but hopefully we will never see that. Hopefully we will just compete, like hopefully the ultra-terrain is able to compete.

Hopefully the ultra-terrain gives what people need in terms of what they care about, which is, am I gonna have enough returns to make my, to pay my bills when I retire, r grow to get a good retirement nest egg? But again, if they, if it does happen, it is important to understand the moving parts and the value that they add, if God forbid, anything really bad happens.

[00:54:30]>Rafael Ortega: It is funny because I was thinking that is exactly what has taken me now full circle to, okay. I cannot convince everyone to be an All-Weather investor because it, people are just not built in their mind for that. They like taking risk. They believe in stocks and they are value investors or they are whatever, I do not know, they want stocks and they want businesses and they believe in the markets and they are capitalists. So whatever they have in their mind.

You still can use diversification without sacrificing returns, right? You couldn’t do it before. You can do it now. And that is what I was saying, right? You can add to a 100% portfolio that a 100% stocks, whatever kind of thing you are doing, a 100% stocks, you can add some diversifiers on top of that, and if you do the right amount, you are not going to feel the difference and you are just going to get that extra return from the stacking.

So even if you are just looking at returns, Return Stacking makes sense. If you are looking at, maybe you want a little less risk, not concentrate your defense on bonds, then you can use Return Stacking to have a more diversified defense, which is what I was trying to do before, but now I think I am doing it more efficiently again. Add more defense to that defense that we did. We didn’t do that before with stacking.​

[00:56:00]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:56:00]>Rafael Ortega: There is so many other ways to use stacking that when I put myself in other kind of investors’ boots, my mind is exploding because I just cannot understand. If you know about it, why wouldn’t you do it? I just do not see a world where in a couple of decades this isn’t the norm, right? Everyone will use…​

[00:56:24]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Where it is not, where it is not standard of care for the financial industry.​

[00:56:28]>Rafael Ortega: Using 20. I see that. If you have any version of a 60/40, right? Like your indexed stock in one portfolio, you can easily add 10, 15% stack without affecting your overall risk and just get some extra returns. Not like, it will happen eventually. You are adding things that are, they make money over time. We know that not all the time, but now you can get a diversified set of things that make money over time. You put them on top of your traditional portfolio. Tracking error is going to be minimal. Volatility wise, it is going to be almost the same, and you are just going to get some extra returns.​

[00:57:09]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. And, but, and the thing is that, the caveat to all of that is that, we are saying it will, but the reality is that, you look at some diversifiers, AQR went through a three year period where their alpha sleeve just lost money, and now it is killing it again. Like, it depends on timeframe. There will be losses, there is no guarantees. But, again, these are sound, a lot of these are very sound ideas.

Even if you are a 100% equity investor and you decide to stack some bonds, the question is, is term premium going to exist in the future if you are able to stack an extra 1% just by doing 100% equities/20% Bonds, alright? You are adding diversification. Do you believe in term premium? Do you believe that bonds are going to make returns above cash, especially if you are taking duration risk? It seems like a reasonable thing.

[00:57:56]>Rafael Ortega: I know, we, we have to…​

[00:57:58]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:57:58]>Rafael Ortega: We have to…​

[00:58:00]>Rodrigo Gordillo: We have to yeah, temper expectations, yeah.​

[00:58:04]>Rafael Ortega: I feel like that stock investors never do this, but okay, let’s temper expectations.​

[00:58:08]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. Let’s us do what we…​

[00:58:11]>Rafael Ortega: But I can see a world where one of those diversifiers can fail on you even in the long term, but the more of them you add on, you know, the more probable is than, you know that, than a series of things that have made money over time in the long term. If you add them together and you have a diversified set of them, will eventually probably make some money and that will be something that will be on top of what you are doing right now, and it will not affect your portfolio.​

[00:58:43]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[00:58:43]>Rafael Ortega: So.​

[00:58:45]>Rodrigo Gordillo: And I think you are right. I think the big unlock for guys like you and me who both started on the All-Terrain camp and were like, this is the only way. When you take that away for a second and okay, investing is a religion. Everybody has their own religion and their, they are value investors, but there is a bunch of, there is a bunch of like sects within value investors too, right, and there is All-Terrain investors in there.  There is a bunch of sects. So, everybody has their own point of view.

The big unlock here is saying, okay, let’s not try to shove All-Terrain down the throat, to be down people’s throats, but rather the realization that, oh, this is just a tool. And, if we can provide tools for advisors and investors to apply their own religion in a much more efficient manner, then we should help them do that.

And I think we are, we’re both later in our careers, have been like, okay, you know what? Let’s empower the world’s population. You are going to tackle Europe. We will tackle the anglosphere, to just do a little bit better. And I think that is, you are coming at it now, that is what you are going to start offering soon, and it makes total sense to me, and I am actually quite pumped about it, from this, how it is going to work in Europe, from your perspective.​

[01:00:07]>Rafael Ortega: Yep.
​

[01:00:08]>Rodrigo Gordillo: All right. We covered a lot. Is there anything that I, that you think would be useful? Any parting words?​

[01:00:15]>Rafael Ortega: I. Yeah. maybe I, it is more of a question that I am asking you, but…​

[01:00:19]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Sure.​

[01:00:20]>Rafael Ortega: I am seeing more interest in Return Stacking, portable alpha. The last couple of months have been pretty crazy with lots of shops opening up new ideas. I understand there is one of the reasons why this had not happened before was, had to do with the regulation in the States. We are looking at how this is evolving in Europe, but like, how do you see, first of all, the landscape in the States, in the rest of the world.​

[01:00:58]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Sure.​

[01:00:59]>Rafael Ortega: Things in Canada too. How do you see this evolving, States.​

[01:01:04]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Sure. Yeah.​

[01:01:07]>Rafael Ortega: The transition to other markets like Europe, where, I have started, as you were saying before, we found a way to operate, but like we have had to go through many…​

[01:01:19]>Rodrigo Gordillo: We are going through loopholes right now to get you the exposure that you need with your bank, right? So it is, I think, like anything new, it has been around for 40 years, right? I think I have used this analogy before.

There is a bunch of, for people who do not want to die of a heart attack, there is a bunch of tests that have been approved and been recommended for doctors to give their patients for years, in order to assess whether you are a high risk for heart attack or not, that are not being done by the vast majority of doctors, even though they have been around for 20 years.

And so it requires, in this case and some experts to bang down the door and say, no, everybody needs to get their AOB numbers. And they, everybody needs to get their LP, sorry, LPa, little “a” numbers checked. And these are things that nobody really knows about today. They just care about cholesterol, total cholesterol, even though it is a good indicator.

But our maximum indicator it takes decades, right? And, portable alpha has been around for 40 years and it is taken a few people, trying to say the same thing in different ways and communicate.
​
And then when it becomes important, there is a groundswell right now, if you look at how many times the word portable alpha has been searched, it has gone from nothing to an insane amount in the last two years, especially. Probably we helped in a little bit in that. Now institutions have to pay attention. Like, we know for a fact that Morningstar is having to think about a new category that is going to put all portable alpha people in there.

And then the next question is who is behind the curve? And I think the usage structures behind the curve, they have these weird rules about how one can invest in derivatives, and it makes it really difficult and really expensive to provide the best possible stack because of that.

And I am sure that will slowly start to change, because there is going to be too many people that matter to them, forcing them to lighten up a little bit, right? So that groundswell is coming. People are asking more and more about it.

Once a category in Morningstar exists, and other platforms will have to think about it as well and categorize, there is a reticence from existing funds that have been using portable alpha from forever, to saying the word leverage. I think these…​

[01:03:46]>Rafael Ortega: I…​

[01:03:47]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, de-stigmatizing is going to be huge.​

[01:03:50]>Rafael Ortega: It’s everywhere. And I know what it is. Right? But before I…​

[01:03:55]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[01:03:56]>Rafael Ortega: Were not saying it, you can find it, right? That you will eventually find this fund.​

[01:04:03]>Rodrigo Gordillo: And the goal here is to de-stigmatizing.​

[01:04:05]>Rafael Ortega: To a benchmark, and then you actually end up finding out that it is doing stocks plus something, and then that is why they are getting those returns, right? So…​

[01:04:14]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[01:04:14]>Rafael Ortega: I see it everywhere, but I see people using it and not saying they are using it. And again, that going back to what I said before about being very transparent on, okay, this is what we are doing, and we explain it.​

[01:04:27]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[01:04:28]>Rafael Ortega: That you do not get scared and, you see it is okay and it works. And, is exactly how works.
​

[01:04:36]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah. And I think a bigger unlock is also, like anything, portfolio construction can be anything, portable alpha can be any sort of iteration. Keeping it as simple as possible with the one plus one that we have really focused on, talking about Lego Blocks, I think, again, bringing it down to a level where people can understand it, understand what they can put in and what they can take out, and being upfront about what the stacks are is the big unlock, versus we just, how do we outperform? We just do overlay stuff. Just trust us. We are going to, we are going to just do our own thing, and you just need to batten down the hatches and investing it long term.

We are trying to be like open kimono. Here is exactly how it works. You should know, and let’s really understand what the risks that you are taking by using portable alpha return stacking leverage are, and dispel some of the myths and understand some of the risks. It is going to be a long journey to get bought at auction, but I, like I said, 40 years from now, I would be shocked if everybody’s portfolio does not have at least a little bit of this.​

[01:05:41]>Rafael Ortega: I see it.​

[01:05:42]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[01:05:42]>Rafael Ortega: Hopefully Europe moves a little faster and I can introduce things, because right now I am seeing that I am always the first person to ask, or the first person in anything that is portable alpha-esque in Europe. Now in Canada too. I think I am one of the biggest.​

[01:06:01]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah.​

[01:06:02]>Rafael Ortega: So I am trying to be there at the forefront of it, but really enjoying it because I think we are very early and…​

[01:06:11]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Very early and it is exciting and you see that like when you put things together and you, I am like, oh my God, this is so good. We just need to give it, we just need to show it out and give it some time. And it is always, it always, because of the operational burden of doing something new, it is always, you are putting things out two years later than what you want it to.

Like we wrote the paper in 2021 and we wanted to launch something at the end of 2021. Had we done that, the visual obvious story would immerse, would emerge. And what has happened is it took everybody two years to let us do what we needed to do, and we launched at the teeth of a drawdown in some of these stacks, right?
We are just going to have to muddle through, and keep on telling the story, and you are a good partner to have in Europe.​

[01:06:54]>Rafael Ortega: Let’s see. Let’s see how it goes. We will keep pushing it.​

[01:06:58]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Okay, Rafa, this has been awesome. We should do this more often. Your English is much better than my Spanish, which is, which is incredible, for somebody that hasn’t done this in English. Thanks again. We will, if anybody wants to find your work, and they find you on social media and on your websites and so on?​

[01:07:18]>Rafael Ortega: I am on Twitter mostly, @Paton, which is, R-I-V-E-R-P-A-T-R-I-M-O-N-I-O. We will have it down there the links.​

[01:07:32]>Rodrigo Gordillo: In show notes.​

[01:07:34]>Rafael Ortega: And then if you wanna read about Return Stacking in Spanish, you can actually find me if you look for Return Stacked® Portfolios.es that is the Spanish webpage.

And there we are basically talking about Return Stacking and doing, covering all the stuff that you guys are doing. Trying to bring it again, the main difference is that we are looking at retail investors instead of advisors. So that is why I some of ideas.​

[01:08:05]>Rodrigo Gordillo: Yeah, I would definitely encourage people to go to the site and there is a little button on your Chrome that says translate and does a pretty good job of just try to read a few and read it from a different angle, that Rafa is really good at. So definitely visit the site, read some of the blog articles we will have you on more often. And keep doing what you are doing, man. You are doing God’s work. Thanks for joining today.